AOL File Library: 11,000 to 11,999/11000.zip/AOLDLs/Horse Racing Library/(ANY)KY Derby_Ch.Downs Folder/KDCHDN.txt

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Subj:  The Belmont
Date:  95-01-03 18:34:09 EDT
From:  Mtoepit
Posted on: America Online

Ed,

I couldn't agree with you more on the Belmont.  When i lived in NY I went for
three years and also to a Breeders Cup.  Belmont is a beautiful racetrack.

Best thing to do is stay in the city and take the Long Island Railroad to
track. No traffic, and handicap on the train.

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Subj:  Help--Derby attire
Date:  95-01-04 15:10:08 EDT
From:  Tsowen
Posted on: America Online

My wife and I will be going to the Derby for the first time this year, and
know that it's quite an event.  Can you give us some tips on what to bring,
what to wear, etc.?

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Subj:  Re:The Belmont
Date:  95-01-06 00:09:00 EDT
From:  Layla169
Posted on: America Online

Having grown up 10 min. from Belmont, I spent many Stakes days seeing some of
the great ones (Affirmed, Slew...). It's a grand track and quite reasonably
priced.  I remember seeing Forego one time, and thinking "he's HUGE!"
Also got "The Shoe's" autograph that day...Ah, well.....

All the best!
Dina

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Subj:  Kentucky Derby winners
Date:  95-01-06 23:47:53 EDT
From:  Lew 12
Posted on: America Online

What horse holds the record?  What was it's time?

On a different horse subject, what is the fastest a horse has run?  I need to
know by late Saturday 1/7/95.  School project
                                            Lew 12

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Subj:  Re:Kentucky Derby
winners
Date:  95-01-07 03:17:56 EDT
From:  SECRETTAME
Posted on: America Online

Lew 12, (does that mean that you are 12yo?)

     Every thoroughbred fan knows that Secretariat set the Derby record of
1:58 2/5 (1 1/4 miles in 118 and 2/5 seconds) in 1973. A thoroughbred can run
at speeds of up to 41mph for short distances (appx. 1/2 mile), and can
average 35-37mph for distances up to 1 1/2 miles.
                          good luck on your paper,   Brian

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Subj:  Re:Kentucky
Derby winners
Date:  95-01-07 15:55:51 EDT
From:  LAKORZUN
Posted on: America Online

  Wasn't it 1:59 2/5?

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Subj:  Re:Thanks KD Winners
Date:  95-01-07 17:09:12 EDT
From:  Lew 12
Posted on: America Online

Brian,
Thanks a million.  I had looked all over my CD Comptons Encyclopedia and
there was nothing.

              Thanks,
                        Evan
P.S.  I used my dads name.  My real name is Evan and I am 12.

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Subj:
Re:Kentucky Derby winners
Date:  95-01-07 19:14:16 EDT
From:  JRomansjr
Posted on: America Online

The horse that holds the record for the mile and quater in the Kentucky
Derby is Secretariat.  His fractions were 23-2/5 47-2/5 1:11-4/5
1:36-1/5 and final time of 1:59-2/5 ( the current track record at Churchill
Downs).  This was in the 1973 Derby.  The fastest a horse can run is
@ 40 mph - Secretariat's time converts to a little faster than 37.5 MPH
going a mile and quarter carring 126 lbs.

JRomansjr

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Subj:  Greetings
Date:  95-01-08 14:22:31 EDT
From:  HOOBA
Posted on: America Online

Hi fellow horse racing fans. It's my first time on this board. Living in
Colorado I am deprived of any feedback on the great sport of horse racing. I
lived in New York from 65' through 91'. As many of you have mentioned, the
belmont Stakes is a great day of racing. I'm planning on heading back in June
for this years running. There is an address at the NYRA to order grandsatnd
and clubhouse tickets if anyone is interested. If so, let me know and I'll
call my buddy who ordered them this year and get it for posting.

I was wondering if anyone had info on offsrping of 2 of my favorite horses in
my "more involved" racing days - GROOVY and TURKOMAN. I would expect that
Turkoman has the potential to produce a classic contender at some point. As
far as Groovy is concerned I've been trying to specifically follow the
sprinters and haven't heard much about any Groovy colts or fillies.

Here's to hoping that the Belmont this year is Triple Crown attempt for one
of our 4 legged athletes. I really think that now, more than ever (with all
of  these major sports strikes) that a Triple Crown winner will be warmly
accepted by the country and give horse racing some good PR (like those
Secretariat days).





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Subj:  Re:Kentucky Derby winners
Date:  95-01-09 02:06:54 EDT
From:  Mighty 4um
Posted on: America Online

Secretariat ran the Derby in 1:59 2/5 (record for the 1-1/4 mile Derby)

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Subj:
Re:"Girls in the Derby"
Date:  95-01-11 00:23:03 EDT
From:  MPR5050
Posted on: System

Don't forget Winning Colors who went wire to wire in '88

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Subj:  Re:Help--Derby
attire
Date:  95-01-11 00:27:27 EDT
From:  MPR5050
Posted on: System

Depends where you're sitting.  If you're in the Grandstand -- ladies wear
their finest spring clothes and don't forget your hats.  Gentlemen -- ties
and jackets.  Horsey ties are a great touch.

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Subj:  Re:Kentucky Derby winners
Date:  95-01-11 03:47:15 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: System

The amazing fact about Big Red is he ran each successive quarter mile faster
than the one before as he came from way off the pace.

In March of his 3 yr. old year he "opened his pipes" according to his owner,
Penny Chenery, with a 3 furlong move of :32.2.  He wasn't asked - he was
breezing.  Think about that.  :11 is a fast eigth of a mile (furlong) and :10
and change is movin'.

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Subj:  Re:Kentucky Derby winners
Date:  95-01-11 03:49:59 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: System

More on my favorite horse.  The Belmont fractions are scary and he broke the
world record for a 1 5/8 mile as he pulled up after the wire.  He ran 1:59
for a 1 1/4 (which was a track record at time I believe) on way to world
record on dirt at time 2:24.  All on his own.    He was screwed out of
"official" Preakness track record which he did set by a malfunctioning
clock.

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Subj:  Mr. Greeley
Date:  95-01-11 17:15:17 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: System

  Finally got to see Mr. Greeley's race opening day at GP.  Very interesting.
I am putting him on my very short list of horses to watch for the Derby.

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Subj:
Re:  Mr. Greeley
Date:  95-01-11 18:25:54 EDT
From:  KidBeyer
Posted on: System

You are not alone Ed !

I too was very impressed Mr. Greeley.
Broke 2 lengths slowly and Julie him rushed him up to lead after a 1/4 and
kept drawing off.

His record now stands at 3 wins and 2 2nds in 7 starts.
By Gone West out of a Reviewer mare Long Legend.

The 6 to 7 furlong stretchout in the Hutcheson looks ideal.   Don't know who
his opposition might be at this time but he looks like a major player in
Hallandale in the coming weeks.

Trained by Nick Zito and owned by Cornachia / Condren
who gave us Strike the Gold and Go 4 Gin.  Bears watching.

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Subj:  Re:  Mr.
Greeley
Date:  95-01-11 20:06:52 EDT
From:  JscottR190
Posted on: System

The only bad news is Mr. Zito.

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Subj:  Re:  Mr. Greeley
Date:  95-01-12 00:03:33 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: System

Mr. Greeley sure is a good one. He does have a big obstacle to overcome,
however with regard to the Kentucky Derby - his Dosage index of 5.18 is well
above the 4.00 guideline that has held every year but one since 1929. Strike
The Gold won with a DI of 9.00, but after Alydar was made a Classic
chef-de-race by Steve Roman, Strikey's DI fell into line at 2.60. Well, 65
out of 66 since 1929 "before the fact" isn't exactly chopped liver for the
Dosage camp. This should be an interesting Derby.   Vin

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Subj:  Re:  Mr.
Greeley & Vin
Date:  95-01-12 12:45:09 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: System

   Thanks for the dosage update.  That high number will hurt in the Derby if
you're a Derby dosage follower, as I am.
   I disagree with Scott re Mr. Zito.  When talking the Derby, he's a guy I
like to see as trainer.

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Subj:  Re:  Mr. Greeley & Vin
Date:  95-01-12 14:35:14 EDT
From:  JscottR190
Posted on: System

Ed, I like Nick... but I just don't think he is in the top flight of
trainers. He's good for the sport - outspoken and a "personality."  But his
horses are usually overbet.  He gets more than his share of good ones,
though, and thus he usually has a contender.

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Subj:  Re:  Mr. Greeley & dosage
Date:  95-01-12 16:44:52 EDT
From:  NDasch
Posted on: System

as for dosage, the same can be said for afternoon deelites. his dosage is mid
5s.
at this stage, its very difficult to pick a derby favorite. but with a gun to
my head, id have to lean towards american day, a half-brother to best pal who
is fast and looks like he wants to run all day.

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Subj:  Re:  Mr. Greeley &
JScott
Date:  95-01-13 15:42:33 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: System

   I think you're talking about Zito in general, Scott, while I'm talking
about him and the K. Derby.  Whether you like him or not in general, you have
to admit that be knows how to bring a horse up to the Derby, especially colts
that might be a notch below the top ones.

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Subj:  Re:  Mr. Greeley & JScott
Date:  95-01-13 20:37:11 EDT
From:  JscottR190
Posted on: System

OK, Ed.  I agree Nick points (with some success) to the Derby.  Ah, will May
ever return?

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Subj:  Re:Mr. Greeley
Date:  95-01-13 22:20:41 EDT
From:  HORSEMAVEN
Posted on: System

exacta ed you also better keep your eye on cryptic bid

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Subj:  The Derby
Date:  95-01-15 14:00:13 EDT
From:  NMott
Posted on: System

Well, race fans I have been busy making one Hell of a lot of phone calls( I
hope MCI is telling the truth) to Kentucky in hopes of scoring a couple of
tickets to the "Race".  In my search I have gotten angry to disappointed for
the following reasons:  # 1 is  price fixing, that's what I call it.  The
motels, hotels, B&B's and any other boarding house have raised their rates to
exorbinate prices due to the Race.  Not only is the price of lodging
outragous but the tickets to the Derby are almost impossible to get.  What
you have to do is write to them stating that you want tickets then you are
put on a "list" and if you are lucky and get picked then they hit you with
the cost of the ticket because up to this time you still don't know if you
got a cheap seat or the expensive one. Prices go from the 10 to 100 dollars.
$ 10 for the grassy area and up to $ 100 for a box, clubhouse, grandstand,
bleacher or a tree branch.  Well, if you don't like the seats or the price is
to owchy then you don't have to take them.  I wish they could tell me when
they make the draw.  The one consolation is that you don't have to worry
about getting regular grassy area ticket "as we always have plenty of them".
Well, I am still nervous because I have already bought the airline tickets
while the rates are low and you can still get a flight to thier airport.
This is like trying to get tickets to the 49er vs Cowboys game.  One cheap
motel 40 miles from Louisville is regularly $ 36 now it's $100 per night.
Most of down town hotels have been taken for the weekend (you have to take it
for 3 days) at about $ 115 to $ 165 per night.  Have you ever tried dealing
with Kentuckians or even understand what they are trying to tell you?  Now, I
know.  Well, I'm going anyway grass or throne I will still see the great
Derby and have a good time.  Well, bye for now     TS

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Subj:  KY Derby Glasses
Date:  95-01-15 23:24:18 EDT
From:  CYoungiii
Posted on: System

I am looking for KY Derby Glasses pre-1960.  Please send notification of
available glasses to Cyoungiii@ aol.com, or reply to this note in this
grouping.

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Subj:  Eltish?
Date:  95-01-16 19:42:45 EDT
From:  Dalmore
Posted on: System

Anyone know if Henry Cecil is considering bringing Eltish over for the Spring
Classics?

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Subj:  Re:Mr. Greeley & Horsemaven
Date:  95-01-16 22:58:44 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: System

   You have a great point Horsemaven.  Let's keep it quiet for a while and
get a price ; )
   See my Derby Futures posting in the Handicapping Folder.

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Subj:  Re:Mr.
Greeley & Horsemaven
Date:  95-01-17 16:32:36 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: System

I think Eltish is coming over.  Probably not definite til they see his
form.

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Subj:  Re:The Derby
Date:  95-01-18 00:35:12 EDT
From:  TCole31521
Posted on: System

Derby invoices mailed out in Nov/Dec. Cheapest seats $40 they start you out
in and about sec 125 (near derby starting gate/bleachers) Only about 100-125
tixs open up each year.  When you write tell them how many years you have
tried, if you get tix to any other CD event (Oaks, BCUP), tell them you'll
take ANY seat. It took me 7 years to get in.  Can't help with lodging, Price
increases for almost 100 miles away.  Scalping illegal in KY, legal in
Indiana. $40 seats go for about $100 plus.  Plenty of selling/scalping day of
race prices go down as day goes on.

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Subj:  Tejano Run
Date:  95-01-18 00:37:18 EDT
From:  TCole31521
Posted on: System

I was very impressed with Tejano Run in Breeders cup.  Anybody have any info
on this horse? Dosage? where racing? heading towards Derby?

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Subj:  Re:Tejano
Run
Date:  95-01-18 22:48:31 EDT
From:  BillR59225
Posted on: System

Tejano Run is at the Fairgrounds, and is being readied for the spring
classics.   Plans seem to be for him to make one start at the FG, before the
La. derby


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Subj:  Re:Derby glasses
Date:  95-01-20 21:45:20 EDT
From:  LAKORZUN
Posted on: System

    Try looking in antique fairs and from dealers.  I have found several from
the 70's there and I have seen a 1960.  Sometimes they're a little expensive
though.  Good Luck with your search!

--Lauren


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Subj:  dark horse
Date:  95-01-21 00:21:25 EDT
From:  M brunker
Posted on: System

haven't seen any mention yet here of Jumron, who won the El Camino Real Derby
over a sloppy Bay Meadows racetrack on Jan. 14. Not sure yet that he deserves
to be mentioned in the same breath as Timber Country or Afternoon Deelites,
but he finished the race very strongly. And you haven't forgot, have you,
that Tabasco Cat used this race as his springboard to good things last year.
If you bet Jumron, who is trained by Gary Lewis, get 50-1 and you might be
awfully glad you did come the first Saturday in May.

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Subj:  Re:dark horse
Date:  95-01-21 11:18:17 EDT
From:  LizatheNag
Posted on: System

Especially if the Derby is run in the slop.
-Liza

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Subj:  Darker horses
Date:  95-01-21 12:25:23 EDT
From:  Dalmore
Posted on: System

Comments on Jumron worth noting.

Anyone know what's going on with another dark horse, Sierra Diablo?

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Subj:
Re:Darker horses
Date:  95-01-21 14:19:03 EDT
From:  NDasch
Posted on: System

Just in case Jumron happens to be an important horse down the road, I want
everyone to know he's from the Northwest. Because I'm sure the Californians
will embrace him like a glove if he turns out to be a real runner. Jumron
broke his maiden at Portland Meadows, won a stake at Portland, and ran second
in two stakes in Vancouver, bc. he's owned by a man in battle ground, wash.,
which is just north of portland. hey, a derby horse from this area comes
around, well, maybe never.

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Subj:  RE: Cryptic Bid
Date:  95-01-21 15:40:56 EDT
From:  WhirlAway4
Posted on: System

Here's a name you can mark off your Derby list. Word is he injured himself at
Gulfstream. Don't know details yet.

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Subj:  Re:Kentucky Derby winners
Date:  95-01-22 02:05:51 EDT
From:  Lady Slew
Posted on: System

Yes, I too believe that Pimlico's time for Secretariat's Preakness was wrong.
But one thing to remember - even if they were willing to except the correct
time as per the DRF it would have been broken by now.

Probably has something to do with that big pile of dirt you see sitting
around near the track Preakness week that acording to management wasn't
scraped off the track. :-)

Lady Slew

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Subj:  Re:The Derby - hotels
Date:  95-01-22 02:11:36 EDT
From:  Lady Slew
Posted on: System

I agree with you on the price fixing.  I've never been for the Derby, but I
have been to Louisville at other times and I once asked at the hotel I was
staying at what the same room would cost for the Derby.  This was in mid
February.  I was told that my $30 room was $120 during Derby week and they
were already full for that year but they would be happy to take a reservation
for the next year!  By the way this was in 1983.

Lady Slew

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Subj:  Re:Help--Derby attire
Date:  95-01-22 12:54:00 EDT
From:  TimMcGrain
Posted on: System

>>If you're in the Grandstand -- ladies wear their finest spring clothes and
don't forget your hats.  Gentlemen -- ties and jackets.<<

Having been to many Derbies over the years - my Dad has a grandstand box - I
find a great varity of attire from the fancy dress suggested, to cutoffs and
tee shirts in the grandstands. Variety abounds, so wear what is comfortable.
I wear my tackiest hawian shirt and comfortable shorts. Yes outrageous ladies
hats are part of the tradition.

Do be aware that early May is on the cusp of springtime in Kentucky and the
weather is far from stable. Normally it is a brisk sunny time; cold, rain and
heat abound.

Know where your seats will be. A sweater or jacket is advised, even for sunny
and warm days, if you will be in the shade.

Tim Mc



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Subj:  Re:Tejano Run
Date:  95-01-23 12:00:56 EDT
From:  Spizzbo
Posted on: System

tejano run is a very good looking horse; with cryptic bid (a personal
favorite) possibly on the sidelines, he looks to have a good shot. dosage is
2.38, well under the roman cut-off.
dave

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Subj:  Re:The Derby
Date:  95-01-23 20:57:02 EDT
From:  Equestrin
Posted on: System

I am a travel agent and handled tickets to the Kentucky Derby last year.
Grandstand tickets were $125.00 and $150.00.
I'll check into tickets for this year and get back to you.
I also will be handling tickets to the 96 Olympics in Atlanta including the
Equestrian Events.
Those tickets should be available May 1.


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Subj:  Re:The Derby
Date:  95-01-24 14:20:27 EDT
From:  EquineLdy
Posted on: America Online

Thank you, Equestrin!  Many members have asked about Olympic equestrian
events tickets, etc. also and I know everyone would appreciate the
information.  :)

:U  Karen

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Subj:  Dosage, & the winner is.....
Date:  95-01-24 15:07:49 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

  Save this list, cross off the dropouts as we head down the path, and you'll
have the Kentucky Derby winner come May 6th.  I posted the similar list last
year at this time (yes, Go For Gin was there, Holy Bull was NOT).
   These are the horses that have a dosage of 4.00 or under, CD of 1.25 or
under, and are weighted within 10 pounds of the Experimental Highweight (or
champion in another country).  If you don't know what this dosage thing is
all about, keep the list anyway, you'll like it.  You'll hear more about this
theory in future posts.  If you don't believe in the dosage theory, skip this
notice, and good luck.
    Timber Country (126, 3.29), Eltish (123, 3.00), Tejano Run (121,  2.38),
On Target (119, 2.75), Evansville Slew (118, 2.20), Supremo (117, 3.00),
Western Echo (117, 3.00), Desert Mirage (116,  3.44), Mr Purple (116, 2.43),
Native Regent (116, 2.20), Thunder Gulch (116, 4.00)

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Subj:  Re:Dosage, & the
winner is.....
Date:  95-01-24 17:08:36 EDT
From:  LizatheNag
Posted on: America Online

skip this notice at your own peril ;-)
-Liza


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Subj:  Re:Dosage, & the winner is.....
Date:  95-01-25 00:02:16 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

oh, no...this means Afternoon Deelites can't win the Triple Crown, doesn't
it?!

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Subj:  Re: Dosage
Date:  95-01-25 02:20:08 EDT
From:  PoKneePro
Posted on: America Online

Dosage certainly has its detractors. Just don't count me among them.

One additional note: Timber Country is an automatic throwout for me -- no
winner of the BC Juvenile has ever gone on to win the Derby. Ten years of BC
Juvenile's is too small of a sample, you say? Remember the old gambler's
adage: Don't go against the trend! Besides, unless he has a terrible spring,
he'll be the favorite. (Double whammy!)

Regards,

Rick



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Subj:  Re: Dosage
Date:  95-01-25 16:47:07 EDT
From:  Horse Plyr
Posted on: America Online

I, too, like the dual qualifier angle.  If not for Kingpost/49er in 1988, My
dad and myself both have won a bet in the derby each year since 1983.  My
personal sleeper this year is Mr. Purple.  If you see tapes of the BC
Juvenile, notice the wide sweeping acceleration going into and the around the
far turn.  He needs to mature, but he will get better.  This one is for real
and will improve as a 3 yo.

Paul

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Subj:  Re: Dosage
Date:  95-01-25 17:31:53 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

  I agree with PoKneePro.  If you can throw out Timber Country for the BC win
and Afternoon D. for the dosage, you may have eiminated the two favorites at
this time.

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Subj:  Derby Preparations/Observations
Date:  95-01-25 19:11:34 EDT
From:  Secretoath
Posted on: America Online

Greetings and best wishes to all who have contributed to this message board.
I just began reading your dispatches today and  could not resist offering a
few of my own observations.  I was fortunate enough to attend Breeders' Cup
'94 in Louisville and spent the week observing the contenders making their
final training preparations.  One horse who really caught everybody's eye was
Evansville Slew.  His demeanor, fitness and outstanding conformation made him
the "talk of the track" when he stepped on the Churchill surface for his
morning works. I was struck by the impression this horse made on all
observers, as several prominent trainers followed his every move, seemingly
ignoring their own charges.  More than one observer noticed his striking
resemblance to his grandsire, Seattle Slew.

I would hope that observers from around the country will tell us what they
are seeing trackside and in morning workouts.  I am very interested in the
preparations being made by the connections of several Derby contenders,
including Evansville Slew, Eltish and Amos(currently training at Gulfstream).

I would also offer a caution to players strictly adhering to the dual
qualifier rule.  Winning Colors, Sunday Silence and Lil' E. Tee were not on
any list of highweights when they began their three year old campaigns.

Kudos to AOL for this bulletin board, I am looking forward to checking new
submissions on a daily basis. (An aside to Equine Lady : It is never too soon
to start thinking about the Derby.  I had the great fortune to sit next to D.
Wayne Lukas at the Breeders' Cup alibi breakfast and I can personally report
that while he was upset over his narrow loss in the Classic and Flanders'
impending surgery, those disappointments were quickly swept away the minute
Timber Country's chances for the Derby were discussed.)

I Can't Wait!  Just 4 months to the Derby and the start of live racing from
my home track, Canterbury Downs!

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Subj:  Derby Tickets
Date:  95-01-25 19:33:51 EDT
From:  Equestrin
Posted on: America Online

Kentucky Derby prices start at $175.00 for grandstand seats.
Tickets are not available yet, but I will take orders for them now. They
should be out by March.
 Ticket prices for the Olympic Equestrian events will be out late Feb. or
early March, I will let you know what they are as soon as I know. Tickets
will be available May 1, 1995. Bill - The Travel Connection - [phone]
- Evenings.


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Subj:  Re:add dosage
Date:  95-01-26 02:35:32 EDT
From:  NDasch
Posted on: America Online

one note of caution regarding dosage:
horses such as mr. purple and native regent have a limited number of points
when it comes to figuring their dosage, at least not enough points to feel
comfortable.

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Subj:  Re: Dosage
Date:  95-01-26 21:24:49 EDT
From:  UncleEthan
Posted on: America Online

To qoute Nick Zito when he trained Strike the Gold in 1991, "Dosage,
schmosage."

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Subj:  Re: Dosage
Date:  95-01-26 22:15:15 EDT
From:  Horse Plyr
Posted on: America Online

And to all those who bet against the dosage all of the other years:  "no
dosage, no dough".

I had Sunday Silence and had a piece of a huge trifecta when Lil E Tee won.
I don't throw out the horse just because he was not weighted as a 2 yo, but
it does affect how I play the race.

Paul

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Dosage
Date:  95-01-27 16:54:51 EDT
From:  Horse Plyr
Posted on: America Online

I also wanted to add that although I did not bet Strike The Gold to win, I
did box him with Best Pal and Green Alligator for a fair perfecta.  I may
have bet him to win had he had the dosage then because he truly was the class
of that bunch.

Paul

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Lower price on K Derby tickets
Date:  95-01-27 21:35:37 EDT
From:  Equestrin
Posted on: America Online

I found a new supplier for Kentucky Derby tickets. Prices range from $150.00
to $1950.00. The $150.00 tickets are for the 1st level of the grandstand
sections 126 - 128.
  For those of you knew to the Derby, the Kentucky Derby is only one race out
of about a dozen held that same day.

Equestrin


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Eltish
Date:  95-01-28 22:14:21 EDT
From:  WB4FIN1040
Posted on: America Online

Eltish has been nominated for the 1995 Triple Crown.  Does this mean he will
run? Who knows. Hope he stays sound. Watch out for the europeans. Remember
Breeders' Cup day. Then again all you have to say is one word, "Arazi"!

PT

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Eltish
Date:  95-01-29 02:57:31 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

If Cecil brings Eltish over for the Kentucky Derby with fewer than 3 starts
in '95. He, like his Europredecessor Arazi, will not hit the board.





Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:East vs. West
Date:  95-01-29 11:07:26 EDT
From:  WB4FIN1040
Posted on: America Online

I see the east vs. west coast battle has started early this year when Valid
Wager beat Mr. Greeley in the Hutcheson (II). It should be an interesting
road to the triple crown. Sorry, but I'm east coast bias. I'll keep my
fingers crossed on May 6.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:D'Hallevant
Date:  95-01-29 11:10:12 EDT
From:  WB4FIN1040
Posted on: America Online

How bout D'Hallevant's victory in the Palos Verdes Handicap.  I'll bet Ron
McAnally is sending all the press clippings on this impressive horse to
Breeders' Cup Limited.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Lower price on K Derby ticket
Date:  95-01-29 13:26:27 EDT
From:  TimMcGrain
Posted on: America Online

>>the Kentucky Derby is only one race out of about a dozen held that same
day<<

The Derby is the eigth race on a card of ten. Post time for the first race is
considerably earlier than normal. There is a much longer time between races.
Got to allow time for all those extra wagers to be made.

Most Derby tickets also are for Oaks day on Friday, which is when the Derby
mutuals first open.

Tim Mc

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Lower price on K Derby ticket
Date:  95-01-29 17:05:39 EDT
From:  ACWCrane
Posted on: America Online

FYI about Kentucky Derby seats.  The part of the "grandstand" I was in in
1971 (perhaps changed now), was just raw wooden bench seats, no backs.  Very
big shock since I wore mini skirt (it was those days, you know) and nylons
that got snagged in splinters.  Had to sit without back rest for about nine
hours!  (I lucked out the next year and got into a box seat -- long story --
over the finish line just in front of Mrs. Tweedy as Riva Ridge won.  That is
the way to go!)

Alicia

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Dosage/Stirke the Gold
Date:  95-01-29 20:19:51 EDT
From:  Lady Slew
Posted on: America Online

The problem with dosage is that sires that should be on the list aren't -
Strike the Gold's dosage was well within the limits once Alydar got the
recognition he should have had years before!

Lady Slew

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Eltish, etc.
Date:  95-01-31 18:12:59 EDT
From:  ACWCrane
Posted on: America Online

If Eltish comes for the KD, then he'll be on my short list -- my
"handicapping" method is to find the horse with the closest connection to
Claiborne (big surprise).  He is by Claiborne sire Cox's Ridge.  Then maybe
I'll keep my eye on Law of the Sea (Polish Navy-Jurisdictional, Damascus)
owned by Ogden Mills Phipps (long-time Claiborne client) -- after all Polish
Navy (former Claiborne sire) already has one Derby winner (even if he is now
in Japan!).  Long road to the Derby, never can tell what these babies will do
four months from now.  Trick is to get the one who's best on the first
Saturday in May regardless of past or future.

Claiborne has another black-type mare to take back to the farm in Limit,
winner of Busanda Stakes.  Descendant of old Rough Shod II, and
"coincidentally" also by Cox's Ridge.  It is his year for a comeback on the
stallion lists?

Very nicely put letter in this week's issue of The Bood-Horse in "Letters"
section by Todd Bergmann of Louisiana about reversing declines in track
attendance etc.

Also, there is a kind of "centerfold" in the BH this week.  The "pull out"
advertisement for Fort Chaffee.  Now, just make the picture full page size
and get rid of the text (I'll still allow the farm logo in the corner, and
the horse's name, okay?) and we've got our wish!  By the way, thanks to
Warfare Farm for the nice picture of Fort Chaffee even with the advertising!
Also smashing picture from Gainesway of Sunlit Silence on back cover.

Anybody out there old enough to remember when Mereworth Farm always had the
back cover to the Thoroughbred Record.  They would have the pictures of the
foals from the time they were born, as weanlings, and as yearlings (Mereworth
sold at the yearling sales), then the mares in foal until the next crop.
Always big, good quality black and white pictures.  That was where I started
collecting and I still have many of them.

Not to neglect the Thoroughbred Times.  I really liked the "classic" pictures
of the stallions in the stallion directory this year.  Those of us who don't
see these horses need some kind of aid to physical build, and these pictures
reveal a lot about the inheritance of physical type from generation to
generation.

Alicia







^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Tejano Run
Date:  95-01-31 22:43:49 EDT
From:  FG 1872
Posted on: America Online

Tejano Run is training at FG in New Orleans in preparation for the Risen Star
Stakes.  His goal is to use the La. Derby and one other Ky. race as his path
to the Derby.

                                                      Bryan Krantz

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:
Eltish, etc.
Date:  95-01-31 23:42:30 EDT
From:  Jill Mari
Posted on: America Online

I loved those pictures in TT's stallion directory this year, but the picture
that brought a tear to my eye was the ad for Foolish Pleasure.  He's out in
the paddock at full run, and looks so full of life.

Jill Marie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  DERBY TICKET INFO????
Date:  95-02-02 15:35:58 EDT
From:  TCSLAX
Posted on: America Online

WHAT ARE THE TICKET PRICES AND LOCATIONS???
HOW CAN WE PURCHASE ??WE NEED ABOUT 25-30 TICKETS???
TCS. LAX


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  DERBY TICKET INFO????
Date:  95-02-02 15:35:58 EDT
From:  TCSLAX
Posted on: America Online

WHAT ARE THE TICKET PRICES AND LOCATIONS???
HOW CAN WE PURCHASE ??WE NEED ABOUT 25-30 TICKETS???
TCS. LAX

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:DERBY TICKET INFO????
Date:  95-02-02 21:40:23 EDT
From:  Equestrin
Posted on: America Online

Tickets start at $150.00 for lower level grandstand seats and are available
from The Travel Connection-Green Bay, WI [phone] evenings.
Or Email to: Equestrin


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:DERBY TICKET INFO????
Date:  95-02-02 23:47:05 EDT
From:  CHinson550
Posted on: America Online

I did not pay $150 for tix so do not know of which seats you are speaking.
Had box seats & for the BC, too. They were the highest @ $60. I would suggest
you write Churchill Downs IMMEDIATELY as tickets are issued by lottery and
the earlier your request, the better choice you receive for location of
seats.
Churchill Downs, 700 Central Ave, Louisville, KY 40208. Phone [phone],
but think your request has to be in writing. They will accept fax though &
that # is [phone].

Carol

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Price fixing
Date:  95-02-04 15:37:10 EDT
From:  AlydarK
Posted on: America Online

If you're going to the Derby, stay in Lexington. You're an hour away,
surrounded by the best horse country in the US. The only derby I attended was
the year of Alysheba, but I've gone back to the Keeneland spring meeting
every year since. The best advice I can give anyone is to skip the KDerby and
go to either the Lexington or the Blue Grass. That is unless you're a close,
personal friend of Dinny Phipps, Will Farish, etc...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Price fixing
Date:  95-02-04 16:48:05 EDT
From:  CHinson550
Posted on: America Online

I agree Lexington is gorgeous and has lots to do and see (I stay there also
when going to ChD) but everyone should see the Kentucky Derby in person at
least once! When you say "Derby" to someone,  what do you think comes to
mind?

When the horses parade out on the track and they play "My Old Kentucky Home",
you will be glad you are there. The Derby Museum is a nice place to visit
also.

Carol

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: See the Derby at least once!
Date:  95-02-05 19:50:39 EDT
From:  EquineLdy
Posted on: America Online

I agree Carol!  :)   When I hear "My Old Kentucky Home" it still brings tears
to my eyes, and on that first Saturday in May I always stand up to salute the
Thoroughbreds as they come onto the track.  I went to the 1970 and 1971
Derbys.  The famous mint juleps almost put me in a coma before the actual
Derby, between the hot sun and the excitement!  There truly is a special
atmosphere, and I cherish having attended.

BTW.......Churchill Downs representatives ARE ONLINE, and you will see a
folder here plus more info soon in the Horse Sports Library!  CHDNComm is
their Email name and I'm thrilled to see them here.  <G>

:U  Karen

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Sierra Diablo
Date:  95-02-06 01:55:43 EDT
From:  Dalmore
Posted on: America Online

Does anyone know if Sierra Diablo has been working out in preparation for the
Spring Classics?  If so, where? How has he looked?

Thanks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Jambalaya Jazz
Date:  95-02-06 10:54:06 EDT
From:  Mtoepit
Posted on: America Online

Put this horse on your list, and get those future bets down before the
Fountain of Youth.

This horse would have won his return easily except that he took a left turn
after just clearing Star Standard.  He looks like he can run all day and has
perfect running style for the Derby.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  french deputy
Date:  95-02-07 00:28:29 EDT
From:  Rcallie
Posted on: America Online

did anyone see this horse race on Saturday at S.A.?  A very impressive race
for a young horse.  If he runs the same way next time out he will be the
future book favorite for the Derby.  He went from 60-1 to 30-1 at the MGM
after Saturday's race......hurry, hurry, hurry!!!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Best Derby Times
Date:  95-02-07 00:33:46 EDT
From:  TorqMan
Posted on: America Online

My daughter needs the name of the 4 fastest horses to ever run the Kentucky
Derby

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Best Derby Times
Date:  95-02-07 00:46:29 EDT
From:  Jill Mari
Posted on: America Online

Secretariat has the fastest Derby ever: 1:59 2/5

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Best Derby Times
Date:  95-02-07 03:51:22 EDT
From:  SECRETTAME
Posted on: America Online

1. Secretariat - 1973 -         1:59 2/5
2. Sham - 1973 -                1:59  9/10 in a losing effort to Secretariat.
3. Northern Dancer - 1964 - 2:00
4. Spend a Buck - 1985 -    2 00 1/5
5. Decidedly - 1962 -          2:00 2/5
6. Proud Clarion - 1967 -     2:00 3/5


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Timber
Country/Dosage
Date:  95-02-07 10:36:53 EDT
From:  UncleEthan
Posted on: America Online

Timber Country's broodmare sire,  Pretense, has been named a Classic
chef-de-race by Steve Roman. That lowers Timber Country's DI from 3.29 to
2.45.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Chef-de-race
Date:  95-02-07 11:07:59 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

I have heard that term a lot and still don't know what it means. Can someone
please enlighten me?
Thanks,
 Joie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Chef-de-race
Date:  95-02-07 15:26:59 EDT
From:  Horse Plyr
Posted on: America Online

A horse which wins at the classic distance around two turns.

Paul

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Dosage
Date:  95-02-07 19:10:13 EDT
From:  Mtoepit
Posted on: America Online

Are they going to fix Afternoon Delites dosage so it can get within the
guidelines as well.

How are devotees of the system suppossed to throw out logical contenders if
they keep making changes?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  correction
Date:  95-02-07 19:12:19 EDT
From:  Mtoepit
Posted on: America Online

I thought Timber Country did not qualify but I guess he still did at 3.29.
It still however is an interesting question.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  AFTERNOON DEELITES / Rice
Date:  95-02-07 21:36:05 EDT
From:  EGOER
Posted on: America Online

Im on the East coast and have seen Afternoon Deelites on tape once. I i see
that Afternoon Deelites is the future book favorite.In the New York Daily
News, Gary Stevens who is now in Japan says he won't even bother coming back
for the derby because he doesn't have the mount. He also says he hasn't seen
anything like him since seeing tapes of Secretariat. I know he races on
Sunday. What's the story with this horse. I also have heard about an unraced
colt named Rice that is highly regarded. Is this just the standard TEASE that
we get every year.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:AFTERNOON DEELITES / Rice
Date:  95-02-08 00:31:04 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Wow....I didn't know Stevens said that about the DEELITES.  Maybe I will hike
my butt down to LA for Sunday.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  "Chefs de race"  Correction
Date:  95-02-08 04:58:30 EDT
From:  Secretoath
Posted on: America Online

"Chefs de race" was a term invented by J.J. Vuiller,  one of the first great
pedigree researchers and valued advisor to the Aga Khan.  He used the term to
denote sires who displayed unusual ability in siring superior runners.

  Another great pedigree researcher and analyst, Franco Varola, proposed to
break down this list of "Chefs" by the type of runner they sired.  The
current "Chef" list is divided into five categories and each category
reflects the type of runner the specific Chef will generally produce.  Not
every sire can be a "Chef de race", only those who have demonstrated the
proclivity to sire superior runners throughout the course of their stud
careers can (or should) be chosen.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  EVANSVILLE,  ANYONE?
Date:  95-02-08 05:03:06 EDT
From:  Secretoath
Posted on: America Online

Still looking for any word about preparations made by the connections of
Evansville Slew.  If he is working at your track, please post any information
you have (or have heard).

Thank you in advance,

Secret

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Dosage
Date:  95-02-08 10:57:07 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

   Let's not go overboard about the changing of the dosage number.  It was
only done ONCE after a horse won, regrettably, and we die-hard dosage
followers consider the Strike The Gold victory  a rare setback to the theory.
He is NOT claimed as another dosage victor.  He won without the dosage.  I
personally thought the change in STG's dosage so soon after his win was an
embarrassment.  I did, however, wonder why his dosage was so high prior to
the race.  Seemed he should have qualified then with that great breeding.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Rice
Date:  95-02-08 11:06:02 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

   Rice has yet to run, so it is hype that makes his name appear as a
possible Derby winner.   Since last year it looks like all the contenders are
out West.  With Flanders  and Cryptic Bid derailed,  the East is searching
for names to add to the battle.  In addition Holy Bull is getting all the
attention here.  The next few weeks will solve this problem one way or the
other as far as East contenders are concerned.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:"Chefs de race"
Correction
Date:  95-02-08 16:06:01 EDT
From:  Fals
Posted on: America Online

Isn't there another "chef de something" a sire can be?  I remember reading
once that Key to the Mint was both a chef de race and a chef de whatever.  Or
maybe I was confused again.
Liza

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  KDerby ticket update
Date:  95-02-08 21:29:10 EDT
From:  Equestrin
Posted on: America Online

There are very few tickets available through Churchill Downs left. They are
the grounds area for $20.00 and the Garden Area for $30.00. Grandstand
tickets are SOLD OUT!  Grandstand tickets are still available through ticket
brokers and start at $150.00 and go up to $1950.00.

EQ


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Best Derby Times
Date:  95-02-08 22:30:13 EDT
From:  Holy Bull
Posted on: America Online

Since Sham was included, technically Hill Rise should be fourth on the list.
He was beaten a neck by Northern Dancer in 1964...

Ask a simple question...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Chefs
Date:  95-02-09 11:38:54 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

Yes Liza, there are several Chef categories with different weights assigned.
Ed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: Stevens/Deelites
Date:  95-02-09 19:42:43 EDT
From:  UncleEthan
Posted on: America Online

So what if Gary Stevens thinks Afternoon Deelites can't lose the Derby. He
didn't think Mister Frisky, Personal Hope or Brocco (three horses he rode)
could lose, either.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:EVANSVILLE,  ANYONE?
Date:  95-02-09 20:44:20 EDT
From:  DRUMSMASH
Posted on: America Online

Evansville Slew is at Remington Park - OKC, Okla.  He had surgery last winter
to remove a small bone chip and just started working again last week.  It is
doubtful that he will compete in the Triple Crown series.  But, he is a
fantastic athlete and you just never know what will happen.  I'm sure that
Donnie doesn't want to rush anything and will let the colt tell him what he
can do.

Tom

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  French Deputy
Date:  95-02-09 23:34:19 EDT
From:  M brunker
Posted on: America Online

His most recent race was very impressive and he'll no doubt be mentioned in
the same breath as Afternoon Deelites and Timber Country if he runs one more
race of that caliber. Now is the time to get down on the Neil Drysdale
trainee if you're so inclined.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:French Deputy/Deelites
Date:  95-02-10 00:11:34 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

I don't recall a jock pumping a horse he ISN'T riding that way...and I don't
recall Gary Stevens mentioning those other mounts in the same breath as
Secretariat.

But, you are right, time will tell...as always.  Sunday at SA should
help.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:French Deputy
Date:  95-02-10 12:12:28 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

   Somehow I don't see Neil Drysdale pushing to get this colt ready for the
first Saturday in May.  Be careful on futures bets here.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Best Derby
Times
Date:  95-02-10 13:05:06 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

4 fastest Kentucky Derby winners:

Secretariat            1973       1:59:2
Northern Dancer   1964       2:00
Spend a Buck       1985       2:00:1
Decidedly             1962       2:00:2

Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Chef-de-race
Date:  95-02-10 13:22:23 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

The best way to view the term "chef-de-race" in my opinion is "shaper of the
breed". That is, not only is the horse a top stallion, but he consistently
"stamps" his progeny with bloodline traits which are particular to him. It
doesn't matter whether the influence is toward speed or stamina. Let's say a
young stallion like talented sprinter Dayjur were to consistently sire sprint
champions out of mares whose pedigree says
"plodder". If he does this over the long haul, there is little doubt that he
would eventually be classified as a Brilliant chef-de-race, having
established himself as a stallion who not only produces talent, but talent of
a particular aptitude type, ie that of a sprinter.


Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:French Deputy
Date:  95-02-10 13:28:42 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

French Derby's Dosage index is 8.00. Future book players - Caveat Emptor.




Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:french deputy
Date:  95-02-10 14:19:05 EDT
From:  NDasch
Posted on: America Online

even if you're not a believer of dosage -- and i am -- french deputy's
stratospheric 8.00 has to raise some eyebrows. i dont think he's being
pointed for the classics. besides, there are plenty of good races around the
country between 7 and 9 furlongs.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  King Heir
Date:  95-02-10 20:42:12 EDT
From:  Mighty 4um
Posted on: America Online

While reviewing the TC nominees, I came across King Heir who is a full
brother to King Glorious.  I was a big KG fan since he hailed from Northern
CA!!!

So, what's the scoop about King Heir?  Anyone know?

Valerie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:The Derby - hotels
Date:  95-02-10 21:17:46 EDT
From:  Maiappa
Posted on: America Online

Hi, everyone!  I just discovered this list.  The last time I went to the
Derby (can it already be 10 years ago) I reserved a room-actually almost half
a house-through Kentucky Bed and Breakfast.  I don't know if there is more to
their name or not.  We stayed in an absolutely wonderful historic home owned
by a U. of Louisville professor in one of the historic districts in town.  It
wasn't cheap, but then nothing is at Derby time - but it's worth it, isn't
it?  Just another idea for a place to stay.

That same year we were not able to get grandstand tickets and wound up in the
infield.  Never again!  We left after the fourth race it was so disgusting.
It had certainly changed since the first time I went in 1968.  That year we
had a box but went to the infield to explore.  There were no visible drunks,
either hanging on the fence or being escorted off in handcuffs, and no men
standing around insulting every woman passing by.  If you are a serious horse
lover and honor the heritage of the Derby, I warn you not to try and settle
in the infield.

Since then I have gone down to Lexington and stayed with friends over Derby
weekend.  It is almost as exciting there as in Louisville.  Unfortunately my
friends  moved back to Chicago last year :-(.

Sorry for going on so long, but once I start talking about  anything horsey -
I have a difficult time stoping.  It's great to be here.

Maiappa

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Stevens to Hong Kong
Date:  95-02-11 13:44:09 EDT
From:  UncleEthan
Posted on: America Online

If Gary were riding Timber Country, or even French Deputy or some other top
3yo, there's no way Afternoon Deelites would have chased him to Hong Kong.
Main reason Gary went there, I suspect, was his disgust over the way the
recent Jockeys' Guild negotiations with the TRA were settled.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Stevens to Hong Kong
Date:  95-02-11 14:41:21 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

I don't mean to gossip, but I read somewhere that his move was partically a
resultof some personal problems he was having, re: divorce etc.
We all need to get away sometime, I guess.
I hope he comes back soon, he was a pretty class guy.
Joie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Stevens to Hong Kong
Date:  95-02-11 14:41:55 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

WAS? Oops, meant IS.
Don't want to make him DEAD or anything!  ;)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Stevens to Hong Kong
Date:  95-02-11 15:14:45 EDT
From:  Mighty 4um
Posted on: America Online

Joie...

I agree!  Gary Stevens is not only a super jockey, but also a class act!  We
in CA really miss him, and I wish him much success!

Valerie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Stevens to Hong Kong
Date:  95-02-11 18:39:49 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

He;ll be home in June and can come home for big races in meantime.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
DERBY TIXS-WANTED
Date:  95-02-13 15:41:19 EDT
From:  JimS0921
Posted on: America Online

I WOULD LIKE TO PURCHASE TWO DERBY TICKETS.  I AM WILLING TO PAY CASH.
PLEASE E-MAIL ME WITH PRICES AND LOCATIONS.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Dosage v. Deelites
Date:  95-02-13 18:34:02 EDT
From:  Mtoepit
Posted on: America Online

Looks like it will be quite a battle this year.

My only question is if AD is in contention at the quarter pole gets shut off,
finds room and swings outside, and loses by a length, will it be because of
dosage?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dosage v. Deelites
Date:  95-02-13 19:32:31 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

oh, absolutely...but then maybe he'll win the Belmont ( wouldn't be the first
speed horse to do so...)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dosage v. Deelites
Date:  95-02-14 11:38:10 EDT
From:  Jill Mari
Posted on: America Online

The gods of dosage seem to have a way of making things work their way.  The
biggest grin they had was probably in 1986 when Groovy and Zabaleta showed up
in the entries, totally eliminating any chance Snow Chief had in the Derby.
Strange things seem to happen with those numbers...

Jill Marie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dosage v. Deelites
Date:  95-02-14 13:49:22 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

  I agree, strange things do happen.  I personally think that the dosage
thing is part scientific and part strange.   Certainly Holy Bull did not lose
last year because he couldn't last (scientific), but because he ran a strange
race for him.  Had he been on or near the lead and faded,  it might have been
the scientific part that got The Bull.   In any event I refuse to  bet
against it till I see it disproved in several Derbies.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Dr.Roman's
Tinkering with Dosage
Date:  95-02-14 15:27:13 EDT
From:  KidBeyer
Posted on: America Online


The recent manipulation of chefs de race to alter Timber Country's dosage
must have caused a hidden change to the dosage of some other 3 year olds .

Since Timber Country already qualified on dosage parameters,
I'm wondering what the ulterior motive of Dr. Roman really is ?

Is he hedging his bets to prevent another Strike the Gold fiasco
and further ruining what is becoming a very questionable approach to Derby
handicapping.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-14 19:43:02 EDT
From:  Petaluma1
Posted on: America Online

Will someone explain to me what the hell Dosage is? I thought horses won on
the track, not on the computer.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-14 21:44:10 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

I loved Petaluma's post...yes, I sort of get the dosage thing, but it is self
serving to some degree, no?

Afternoon Deelites!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-14 22:46:20 EDT
From:  UncleEthan
Posted on: America Online

Why this obsession with Afternoon Deelites, when he hasn't accomplished half
what Timber Country did last year? Check the fields Timber Country beat
easily - after overcoming tough trips - in the Champagne and Breeders' Cup
Juvenile, vs. the cakewalks Afternoon Deelites has had so far.

Is it just a coincidence that Timber Country's initials are the same as
Triple Crown?

Prediction: Four months from now, Timber Country will be a TRUE superstar,
and everyone will be saying, "Holy Bull? Who's he?"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's
Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-15 00:06:25 EDT
From:  WB Dare Me
Posted on: America Online

Hi all-I have an excerpt from the Internet derby-list faq that explains
dosage. If anyone's interested, email me and I'll upload it to you.

Monika-
Timber Country fan::::ducking from whatever Barbara is throwing at me:::::


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-15 02:31:52 EDT
From:  Spinkbo
Posted on: America Online

I basically agree with Petaluma and Woodmeadow, partly because I think
excessive rationalization of anything is self-serving (i.e. Newt Gingrich et
al's total grasp of the revolutionary truth. Disagree and you're a
reactionary. That's the type of total grasp on the truth that hippies in the
'60s who prescribed sex in the streets proclaimed. Squares "just didn't get
it.")
Oops, back to horse racing. I like the idea of the dosage system as part of
the approach to the day to day grind. Maybe the nine-year-old gelding by Sir
Ivor  (random example) is going to do alright coming off a layoff and moving
from sprints to  nine furlongs (intermediate to classic, Sir Ivor's Chef de
Race speciality).
Worth a stab, especially if you want to grab lunch between races.
The Derby is a holiday. I say bet with your eyeballs (Afternoon Deelites?)
and your heart (same horse?).

Oops. Back to horse racing. I like the dosage idea as an aid, a clue to
grinding it out day to day at the track. For instance,''''

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-15 02:35:09 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Now, now...I will accept all challengers to the little throne I have designed
for Afternoon Deelites.

I like Timber Country and posted so in one of these folders.  We share the
same birthday for that matter.  I think he could ruin my obsession with
Deelites, but I imagine the feeling for Deelites comes from two areas...first
he wins with such style (yes, he hasn't been tested yet, although unknown to
some of you he did only get up to win a narrow decision in his maiden - in
1:08+) and second, Deelites connections are probably universally wished well.
Regardless of which one of them wins a Triple Crown, if either, I will not be
one to forget Holy Bull.  His presence would have made the fall a lot of
fun.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-15 02:41:26 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

KidBeyer:

About a month ago I spotted Roman on the Internet and I solicited his opinion
via  E-mail about a "mini-theory" I have concerning Dosage as an elimination
tool for the Kentucky Derby. My idea is that if a horse is under 4.00 but has
"0-0" for its stamina wing (solid & professional categories on the far right
of the profile for those who aren't that into 'the lingo'), he had better
have a Classic point total at least equal to the sum of the Brilliant plus
Intermediate categories in order to essentially "make up" for not having any
stamina points. I cited Lil E. Tee at 6-2-8-0-0 and Sunday Silence, 4-3-9-0-0
as examples of what I meant. Their Classic (middle) number is "dominant". No
horse under 4.00 with an 0-0 stamina wing has won the Kentucky Derby except
of course Strike the Gold, who is now 10-6-20-0-0 with Alydar now a Classic
Chef.

 I specifically cited Timber Country as an example of the type of horse I
would bet against in the Derby with a profile of 11-5-14-0-0. The 16 points
for B+I outweigh the 14 Classic points.

But that was then. This is now. After Dr. Roman named PRETENSE as a Classic
chef-de-race, Timber Country's profile received an instant transfusion of 8
Classic points, so that he now has a lower Dosage index of 2.45 as well as a
revised profile of 11-5-22-0-0.

In his reply to me a few weeks after my inquiry about this, he ran a sample
of "C>B+I" versus "C<B+I" and found the first group averaged over a point
lower in DI, something like 2.45 vs 3.80. I don't have his reply in front of
me right now.

So why did Roman name Pretense a Classic Chef...and why now? I'm not saying
my note had anything to do with it. But I've got to believe that Timber
Country is 90% of the reason...especially when you consider that Pretense had
throughout his stud career fewer than 5% stakes winners! For comparison,
Danzig, an I/C chef, has 19%, stakes winners. Storm Cat, not a chef as of
yet, has 28 stake winners from 186 foals for 15% according to the 1/28/95
issue of The Blood-Horse. Even the unfashionably bred non-chef Great Above,
Holy Bull's sire has 35 stake winners from 488 foals for 7%. PRETENSE?

Go figure.....

PS: Watch out for Thunder Gulch at 10-2-8-0-0 and a DI of 4.00. He doesn't
make the cut on our rule either.

Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Uncle Ethan
Date:  95-02-15 15:28:03 EDT
From:  EquineLdy
Posted on: America Online

Cheap shot about Holy Bull.........I'm surprised that you would make a
statement like that.  :(

:U  Karen

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-15 15:31:30 EDT
From:  EquineLdy
Posted on: America Online

I'd like to know the "Dr.'s" credentials and basis for his theories.  Kid
Beyer makes some excellent stats quotes that make MORE sense if you ask me!
Go get him, Kid!  ;)

:U  Karen

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Where the Devil?
Date:  95-02-15 19:59:30 EDT
From:  Dalmore
Posted on: America Online

Can anyone tell me if Sierra Diablo has run yet in '95? If so, where; if not,
is he working?  I see him on the Derby futures, but haven't seen a word
elsewhere.

Thanks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-15 20:21:38 EDT
From:  SECRETTAME
Posted on: America Online

Timber Country's initials are the same as Tabasco Cat's, too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-16 01:30:44 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

As a SoCal local, I have see both horses run several times.
Dosage or not, Afternoon Deelites has been the more impressive of the two.
The reason he was not tested is that he is far above the rest of his class
right now. Can he get a distance? I do not know, we'll all have top wait for
the SA derby for that one.
Alan Malamud, a well-respected columnist for the L.A. Times and huge racing
fan, wrote that he had not seen as impressive a three year old at this point
of the season as Afternoon Deelites in DECADES.
- Joie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-16 03:14:57 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

And for all you Kent bashers who might like the talented but oft-troubled
P.Val...he humerously offered to replace Kent for 2% of purse winnings on
Deelites vs. usual 10%.  You see Kent is regular rider on another top 3 yr.
old on west coast, Larry the Legend...and all the jocks (including Gary from
Hong Kong) are trying to get that mount now.  P.Val took a slightly different
tact...but it adds to the hype!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-16 18:17:20 EDT
From:  VDB4367
Posted on: America Online

I really like this subject! I believe it will be argued heavily until the
Derby is official! So far, I have seen Afternoon Deelites just totally
run away from his competition with ease and look like a champion
down the stretch while Timber Country has raced against and beaten
all of the contenders except A.D. after stumbling in one start to take
command of the lead and not relinguish it and also overcoming alot of
traffic to win going away around 2 turns. Those last 2 races has very
much prepared Timber Country for the Derby. Afternoon Deelites looks
so good, it doesn't look like he'll have problems accomplishing anything
this year especially going around turns. Could someone tell me which
preps these 2 horses will run before the SA Derby?  I know one thing,
the Santa Anita Derby will surely answer alot of questions we have about
these 2 awesome horses.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-16 20:26:33 EDT
From:  WB Dare Me
Posted on: America Online

Uh, Uncle Etahn, Tabasco Cats initials are TC and he didn't win the triple
crown.

AD does things so well, and so easily. He's a fluid runner and beautiful to
watch. Not that I'm knocking Timber Country, he's actually my favorite, but
the more beautiful and talented horses, the better for all of us.

Monika

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Deelites vs. Timber Country
Date:  95-02-16 21:09:07 EDT
From:  Dav ben
Posted on: America Online

Can anyone tell me what happened to Deniro?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Just say hello.
Date:  95-02-16 22:32:06 EDT
From:  GGMYER
Posted on: America Online

Do any of you know Murray and Kim Johnson?  They are a husband and wife team
training at Churchill Downs.  Just say G.G. says hello, and tell them to get
their computer up and running!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Where's American DAY ?
Date:  95-02-16 23:23:06 EDT
From:  KidBeyer
Posted on: America Online


Why is there so little being posted about American Day lately?

Hope nothing is wrong.

Who knows when/where he'll start next ?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:debate
Date:  95-02-16 23:26:15 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

DeNiro will be back from his chip injury...at Gulfstream I believe with
master Jerkens.  Should be in allowance soon.

TC goes in Mar. 4 150k San Vicente (Gr. 2) at SA at
1 mile
AD goes in Mar 19 200k San Felipe (Gr.2) at SA at
1 1/16
should meet in April 8 500k SA Derby (Gr.1) 1 1/8

This is tentative and I am more sure of AD schedule.  D Wayne could seek
other options as he has other colts and races all over...could pick up more
lucrative purses avoiding AD and setting up publicity machine for Derby
match.  IE, Jim Beam 600K on April 1 at Turfway Park, Blue Grass at Keeneland
500k on April 15, Wood Memorial at 500k on April 15.  Lukas seems to want to
leave west to TC though as Valid Wager and Thunder Gulch in Florida to make
their statement in FOY.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:debate
Date:  95-02-17 00:02:40 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

Woodmeadow:

The March 4th race is the San Raphael. (Freudian slip I'm sure <g>.)

Any idea as to On Target's next start? He came back from his 4th place finish
in the San Vicente with a mouthful of blood and missing a few teeth after
apparently banging his head on the starting gate. Watch out for this horse.

 As they say on the anonymous headers on the NET, "You have been warned". I'm
aboard at 35-1.      Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:debate
Date:  95-02-17 00:12:34 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Freudian...a willful self-fulfilling prophecy?  Thanks for the catch...hey,
too bad about On Target...I would actually heed your advice.  You see, before
I became infatuated with AD, I liked On Target.  Never love, just like, and
TC did look like the class of the 2 yr. olds with the last two wins...very
impressive work for any horse, but especially a 2 yr. old.  I hope On Target
is feeling better...35-1 should not be passed up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:debate
Date:  95-02-17 01:49:50 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

On Target has a SW brother doesn't he? It slipped my mind. Hmmm . . . was it
Black Tie Affair?
Joie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:debate
Date:  95-02-17 02:00:55 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

On Target's bro is the one with no tail, Sea Cadet.  Now at stud at Payson in
KY for 4k

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:debate
Date:  95-02-17 11:41:04 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

Thanks Barbara.
Question 2- are the dams of both On Target and Black Tie Affair Al Hattab
mares?
Joie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Target for On Target
Date:  95-02-17 11:51:47 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

   Vinman, I believe On Target will run in the Golden Gate Derby 3/25.  Yes,
a colt to watch.
   P.S.  Still waiting for an Eastern colt or two to come to the fore.   This
isn't going to be an all-West Derby this year is it?   No fun that way.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Target for On Target
Date:  95-02-17 12:55:03 EDT
From:  LizatheNag
Posted on: America Online

Ed-
Lots of fun that way ;-)
-Liza

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Target for On Target/Joie
Date:  95-02-17 20:12:52 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Right, DRF says On Target next up to SF...McAnally joined Deelites
bandwagon...said nothing wrong with his Mr. Purple...and that colts had
better have their running shoes on when facing him.  McCarron, up on Mr. P
said AD just very impressive, runs like a 4 yr. old with tremendous turn of
foot. Has been bet heavily in future books...is favorite in almost all.  Mr.
P goes back against TC in San Rafael Mar. 4.  Joie - right you are, Black Tie
Affair out of Hat Tab Girl, by Al Hattab.  PS  If I ever posted (and I think
I alluded to this somewhere) that Valid Wager was a Lukas trainee, I scewed
up.  He is owned by Lukas client, the Lewis', but trained by Mike Mollica.
My apologies.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Tejano Run
Date:  95-02-17 20:13:59 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Still listed with top favs for Derby in DRF...training well at Fair
Grounds.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Deelites will B 4th
Date:  95-02-17 21:10:43 EDT
From:  UncleEthan
Posted on: America Online

Afternoon Deelites will finish fourth in the Kentucky Derby.

He doesn't have the breeding to go a mile and a quarter in early May, and
when Desormeaux realizes he can't win, he'll revert to style, ease up on him
down the stretch and be nosed out for third.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Deelites will B 4th
Date:  95-02-18 00:11:35 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Oh Uncle Ethan, what would we do without your cynical wisdom....and oh, could
I borrow your crystal ball before I go to the track?

Perhaps you were that ambulance attendant with Holy Bull, and he kicked you
in the head, not the stomach.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-18 01:04:44 EDT
From:  KidBeyer
Posted on: America Online


Vinman11:

Quite a unique observation you have regarding Steve Roman's theory.
It just may be that he was not aware of your "mini-theory".
After all he has his Phd. in petroleum research and not equines  : (

Dr. Roman may have been hedging his bets there,
to make Timber Country fit your theory after you notified him.
Also, I will not rule out that this manipulation must have affected the
Dosage Index's of a few obscure 3 yo's that may be pointing for the classics.

What I would like to know is how YOUR mini-theory stacks up in the last 25
Derbies.
Have you done a study on the number of Qualifiers, Winners, ROI ?
Awaiting the litmus test.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Dr.Roman's Tinkering with Dos
Date:  95-02-18 04:26:46 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

KidBeyer:

I haven't had time to do an in-depth study on the Derby *0-0*'s under 4.00,
but I will eventually put together a list just to see how many without the
needed Classic points have failed to win. There really isn't a lot of ROI in
it, in that my rule is simply a futher elimination tool, based on the
observation that no such horse (except "Strikey") has won the Derby without
the Classic > or = B+I. Thunder Gulch at 10-2-8-0-0 and 4.00 falls short
under my rule too. If Roman names Gulch a Classic Chef, I think I'll start
naming my own chefs, starting with Sadler's Wells.           Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Target for On Target
Date:  95-02-18 04:34:47 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

Ed:

Someone out of the Fountain of Youth or Florida Derby generally puts his
stamp on the Kentucky Derby outcome. The question is who? If someone put out
the word at the end of March '94 that "somebody" out of those races would win
the Roses, Gin would have been my 5th or 6th pick.
Who will it be...........Jambalaya.............Vin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:FOY
Date:  95-02-18 19:40:11 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

cool, I bet the $200 with Ed on Thunder Gulch to win...just because Lukas
didn't ship cross country for the hell of it and Mike Smith needs a Derby
horse.

But Jumbalaya Jazz was movin' at the end...maybe Eddie waited too long or had
traffic probs...looks like he could be there with that style on the first
Saturday in May.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:AD
Date:  95-02-18 19:42:34 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

I can't help myself here...but if Thunder Gulch beat the colts in the east
off a 2 month lay-off with a stretch drive...

Afternoon Deelites dusted him in the1 1/16 Hollywood Futurity while
galloping....I give credit to Lukas today, great placement.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:AD
Date:  95-02-18 20:09:29 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

  No question Woodmeadow that AD is a standout at this time.  Much like The
Bull and Dehere last year.  On the other hand Suave Prospect reminded me of
Go For Gin last year at this time : )

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Lukas vs Mandella
Date:  95-02-18 20:47:23 EDT
From:  Depp21
Posted on: America Online

It's Lukas vs Mandella in the Derby. Unless something develops rapidly in the
next three weeks the east coast has nothing. I like A/D to win it all with
Timber Country a fighting second.. The west has the best.....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Derdy
Info.
Date:  95-02-18 23:46:50 EDT
From:  Glenn1960
Posted on: America Online

Would like to go to the Derby this year. If you can help with information
please E-Mail me. Thank You very much.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Jumron
Date:  95-02-19 04:24:03 EDT
From:  HeadMonkey
Posted on: America Online

Anyone like Jumron for a future book bet? He ran great in the mud at Bay
Meadows. If its another wet Derby, he could be the next Go For Gin. Great
closing kick, too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Future Book
Date:  95-02-19 15:46:27 EDT
From:  Spoonamore
Posted on: America Online

Was in Vegas on 1/20 & found future book at MGM, Caesar's, and the Sands.
MGM had the best prices for the most part (40-1 on Tejano Run and 12-1 on
Afternoon Deelites), but the Sands did offer Timber Country at a whopping
30:1!!  Best advice is to shop around before placing any bets!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Tejano Run
Date:  95-02-19 15:52:05 EDT
From:  Spoonamore
Posted on: America Online

Tejano run is heading towards the Derby.  First major prep is scheduled to be
the Louisiana Derby.  Rumor has it that owner sent a $10,000 future book bet
on him.....Bailey says he was bothered in the B.C. Juvenile and to throw that
race out......one of only ten dual qualifiers under the dosage system, so no
worries there......looks good to me!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:DERBY TICKET INFO????
Date:  95-02-19 15:56:10 EDT
From:  Spoonamore
Posted on: America Online

waiting lists for Derby tickets are years long and it is nearly impossible to
get seats except through a scalper.  I live in KY and  have never gotten
tickets!  For more info and to add your name to waiting list write to
Churchill Downs, 700 Central Avenue, Lexington, KY 40208  Attn:  Harriet
Howard.   Phone number for the track is 502-636-4400.  Good luck!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  What
is Churchill Schedule?
Date:  95-02-19 17:09:12 EDT
From:  WEAPON 10
Posted on: America Online

I want to go to Churchill this summer, but I have no idea what their schedule
is like.  Anybody know?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:What is Churchill Schedule?
Date:  95-02-19 19:32:30 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

live racing schedule is April 29-July 4, and then Oct. 29-Nov. 25.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:
Re:Target for On Target
Date:  95-02-19 23:08:25 EDT
From:  M brunker
Posted on: America Online

I  hadn't heard that On Target was planning a Bay Area visit, but if he is
that would be the California Derby on April 15. Would be an interesting
choice, as the 1 1-16 mile Grade III race will be run on the turf this
year.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:DERBY TICKET INFO????
Date:  95-02-20 00:48:10 EDT
From:  BillR59225
Posted on: America Online

The waiting list is the cheapest way to get tix, in the long run.
It does take a while to get to the top of the list but its worth it.
BTW, people from outside KY, are given priority on the list so include a
letter explaining your intentions.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  East v. West
Date:  95-02-20 10:41:42 EDT
From:  Mtoepit
Posted on: America Online

I always get a kick out of the east against west thing, as well as the
European v. US thing when the BC rolls around.

In the Breeders Cup, where the horse is bred should be the relevant factor,
if the Irish breds are particularily strong that is one thing, but a horse
born at a large Kentucky farm and sold at a sale to a European interest I
have trouble calling European.

As for the Derby, the same rule applies.  If Afternoon Deelites was purchased
by someone who likes to run in Florida and New York, wouldn't he still be the
favorite at this time and possibly the best horse.  I'm not sure where
geopgraphy applies to the argument, considering he is a West Virginia bred.

Just a thought.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re: East v. West
Date:  95-02-20 11:22:53 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

Well, no one who lives in SoCal was born and raised in SoCal anyway (except
me! and maybe half of the L.A. Dodgers)
Rooting for the home team, one can't help but get attached to the locals. We
watch their races, their workouts, we read about them constantly, we can spot
them in the mornings without looking at a program. Honestly, I couldn't spot
Flanders if she was standing in a pasture with only one other like-colored
mare, but I can instantly spot Best Pal, Flawlessly, the Wicked North,
Afternoon Deelites, Serenas Song or even Abergwan Lad from across the
grandstand.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Derby Filly?
Date:  95-02-20 11:23:38 EDT
From:  Joie A9426
Posted on: America Online

Nope. Serena's Song will NOT go in the Kentucky Derby. Lukas said in this
morning's L.A. Times that she wil stay in her division.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  eltish
Date:  95-02-20 14:57:43 EDT
From:  Crobster
Posted on: America Online

According to published reports, Eltish is going to prep in Europe and come to
the Derby off that prep. Could be the next Arazi?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subj:  Re:Target for On
Target
Date:  95-02-20 19:48:01 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Golden State Derby at Bay Meadows March 25 is next scheduled start for On
Target (from Sat. DRF)...he is recovering from loss of teeth due to banging
his head on gate in San Vicente.  McAnally joining AD fan club, would like to
simply avoid him til he proves beatable, said, "That is some kind of
horse."

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Subj:  Re:Lukas Top 4
Date:  95-02-20 19:50:43 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

USA Today Monday...Lukas says top 4  three year olds right now are his Timber
Country, Afternoon Deelites, Serena's Song, and Thunder Gulch.  No particular
order as he is a better politician than that.

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Subj:  Re:eltish
Date:  95-02-20 20:30:50 EDT
From:  Spoonamore
Posted on: America Online

Also going the route of Arazi, Eltish is scheduled to contest the Derby off
of a single prep race.....I don't know about you, but that makes me more than
a little nervous!

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Subj:  Re:Target for On Target
Date:  95-02-20 23:40:54 EDT
From:  Vinman11
Posted on: America Online

M Bunker:

The Bay Area race McAnally has in mind for On Target is The Golden State
Derby, a $150,000 ungraded event at 8.5F on the Dirt on Saturday, 3/25 at Bay
Meadows.  This was in Steve Haskins weekly Derby update in last Saturday's
DRF. This race must be new. Good strategy on Ron's part to get him away from
the big boys and the Santa Anita starting gate he lost two teeth to.
Hopefully he'll run well in that and use the Blue Grass as his steppingstone
to Churchill on 5/6.

Vin, with 35-1 On Target.

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Subj:  Re:Eltish
Date:  95-02-21 10:16:14 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

  About the only similarity in Eltish and Arazi re The Derby is they will
have that ONE prep only.  I still think the deciding factor with Arazi was
the surgery.  Eltish also will prep at a longer distance,  1 1/8 miles.
Arazi's trainer was also at a trying period in his life at that time.   I
can't help but feel we didn't see the best of M. Boutin's training then.
All in all, Eltish should not be discounted because of the Arazi facor.


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Subj:  Derby Tickets
Date:  95-02-21 22:57:33 EDT
From:  Equestrin
Posted on: America Online

Tickets are available through ticket brokers, though the prices are somewhat
higher. I am a travel agent and can get tickets. Prices start
at $165.00 for 1st floor grandstand seats, section 126-128 and go up to
$2750.00 for Millionaire's Row.
  Call me evenings at [phone] - Bill  (Equestrin)


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Subj:  Re:Derby Tickets
Date:  95-02-22 00:06:40 EDT
From:  CHinson550
Posted on: America Online

This subject comes up again & again. Tickets to the KY Derby & the BC are
taken by lottery. I have never paid more than $60 for tix @ ChD. If I paid
$165 for a ticket, I would expect to be sitting in Penny Chenery's lap!

If you write to ChD or fax, you will be put on a list and notified if you are
eigible for seats! Thinks someone has already posted about contacting Ms.
Howard.

Churchill Downs, 700 Central Ave, Louisville, KY 40208. Fax [phone].

Besides, If I am not mistaken scalping tix is illegal in KY!

Carol

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Subj:  Re:Derby Tickets
Date:  95-02-22 00:11:18 EDT
From:  CHinson550
Posted on: America Online

Hay, I missed the $2,750 price - for that I would expect Secretariat to run
his sub 2 minute Derby again - in person!

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Carol

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Subj:  Re: Eltish
Date:  95-02-22 18:43:22 EDT
From:  ACWCrane
Posted on: America Online

I'm rooting for Eltish to make it to the Derby just to add a little more
excitement to the mix.  It doesn't bother me that he'll only have one prep
race.  Sooner or later a "foreign" horse is going to win the Derby and it
will probably be off one or two prep races and then EVERYBODY will start
running their horses in the Derby off one or two prep races.  Training
methods are not immune to fads and trends.

Have nothing against Afternoon Delights or Timber Country, in fact hope they
develop a sizzling rivalary that will last for years.  But I usually like to
root for an underdog just to liven things up -- which is also the reason I
don't have any money.

Those people who are saying there will never be another triple crown winner
must be a lot younger than me.  I can remember all through the 60's right up
to the first Saturday in May 1973 when it was 25 years since Citation had won
the TC and EVERYBODY said it couldn't be done again.  Then bam, bam, bam,
three almost in a row.  It runs in cycles and it doesn't mean today's horses
are any less fit or worse trained or whatever.

Alicia


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Subj:  Arazi, The Triple Crown, etc.
Date:  95-02-27 01:29:59 EDT
From:  Secretoath
Posted on: America Online

Would like to affirm ACWCrane on previous post.  One needs to maintain a
sense of perspective before making sweeping assertions about the status of
the game or the future of the breed.  Another big horse is coming.  That is a
certainty.  For anyone who wants to feel that sense of longing and wonder I
suggest a trip to Lexington this Spring.  You will know the feeling when you
stand in front Man O' War's grave and read the words of Joe Estes that are
displayed there.  What binds us here on the on-line is the excitement and
fascination that we all have with this wonderful group of animals.  Our
ancestors felt it when they first stepped out of the trees and saw their
first horse gallop away over the plains.


It is what puts 125,000 people in the Churchill grandstand on that glorious
day.  If you are fortunate enough to be there on the big day, you will feel
that sense of history and you will remember how you became a part of it. I
envy Ms. Crane's Derby experiences and am thankful for her sharing them  with
us.

Now a clarification on Arazi's Derby bid:  The reason he did not win is he
simply could not stay a mile and a quarter.  Boutin did an absolutely perfect
job of bringing that horse up to the Derby.  He was not a horse that required
extensive training to prepare for a race.  Arazi was very much "stamped" with
the look and build of his sire, Blushing Groom and displayed the very same
abilities as a racehorse.  Dosage adherents were misled; even though he
displayed prominent inbreeding to stamina providing influence Wild Risk, he
was clearly an early developing miler.

As for the ride by P Val:  It was perfectly timed and looked very promising
at the quarter pole.  The little horse simply could not go on, despite the
impressive inbreeding.  It is important to note that his sire failed to win
the Epsom Darby at similar odds of 3-5.  The horse did not fail.  Our
perception of the events leading up to the Derby were erroneous.

I knew before the race he would not win, but was unable to capitalize on the
situation.  I have framed my Derby '92 tickets:  Pine Bluff boxed up and down
with Lil E. Tee and Casual Lies.  <Sigh>   That race did not provide a
profit, but taught me a more important lesson.  I believe that the Kentucky
Derby winner is almost predestined to win this race on the strength of its
bloodlines.  Analysis of pedigree by using the dosage formula is an
oversimplification.  But the secret is in the blood.

I am preparing a paper based on my analysis of the Derby fields of the last
25 years and will be posting the salient points of my thesis in this space.
This may be the year I discover the secret.


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Subj:  Re:Arazi, The Triple Crown, etc.
Date:  95-02-27 11:36:46 EDT
From:  Exacta Ed
Posted on: America Online

   I think you too easily discount Arazi's surgery, Secretoath.  We can never
know what true effect such surgery has, but I have to suspect it didn't help
the colt.   I am not sure that M. Boutin's training at that time was
consistent with his lifelong pattern as one of the Continent's best.  There
were problems with Paulson, as I recall, but more importantly he was
beginning the health problem that was to lead to his early demise.  This also
has to be a factor.  I think he was going through the motions at that period.
Actually Arazi's Derby race showed he could go the 10 f.   He ran about the
same as Tabasco Cat did this year.   He just was severely overbet.   Actually
we'll never know what beat him, but his two year old season and in particular
his BC win, stamped him as the best  around at that time in his age group.
He deserved that hype.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi surgery
Date:  95-02-27 15:15:06 EDT
From:  Maredoc
Posted on: America Online

I must disagree, Ed that the surgery hurt the colt. Arazi had literally the
best equine surgeon in the world operate on his knees.  If his knees were the
limiting factor to his ability (and I'm not sure that is clear), it is far
more likely a result of the pre-existing damage than the surgery itself. The
vast majority of horses recover well from arthroscopy; the limiting factor is
the cartilage damage present when surgery is performed.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi
surgery
Date:  95-02-27 16:22:46 EDT
From:  KidBeyer
Posted on: America Online


Exacta Ed had previously posted his views on Arazi's Derby failure,
I agree.

Sure the European's bring their horses up to a race by training methods
rather than use preps.   But Boutin used only 1 low level stakes at 1 mile on
the turf.    Hardly the environment of the Derby Winners use as a springboard
to glory.    Francois Boutin must have known he was not the same horse after
surgery.   Arazi further flopped when he was returned after the Derby to
France, showing no signs of his 2 year old form on the grass.

Let's face it, horses who win 2yo stakes have matured much quicker than
others.
The 3 year old season is a whole new ball game.  No Breeder's Cup Juvenile
winner
has yet won the Derby.   That's why Timber Country is intriguing because he
was peaking in the late fall and may still further develop.

Maybe MareDoc is right that there was additional cartilage damage remaining
even after the surgery.  We'll never know.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi surgery
Date:  95-02-27 20:52:13 EDT
From:  SugahBugah
Posted on: America Online

Wasn't there a question about the fact that Francois
Boutin din't want to run the colt in the Derby but that one of the owners
did?

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Subj:  Re:Arazi surgery
Date:  95-02-27 21:31:25 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

Good point...Boutin did not want to bring him over.  Owners did.  Afternoon
Deelites will make you all feel better soon!

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Subj:  Best Magazine on Horse
Racing
Date:  95-02-27 21:56:43 EDT
From:  XMarx
Posted on: America Online

The best source of information week-to-week on horseracing is a trade
publication for thorougbred owners and breeders called The Blood-Horse.
It keeps you up to date on all the Derby preps, including in-depth
analysis of bloodlines.  They had dosage figures on all the major 3yos and
the full experimental handicap so you could pick out the dual qualifiers
(though I think the dosage index theory is a crock).  I'll see if I can't dig
up
the dosage info on Tejano Run and post it.  I'll keep my back issues of
Blood-Horse handy so I can answer other questions on Derby contenders if I
can.  And, yeah, I'll be at the Derby on May 6--14th year straight, well,
after a few mint juleps, maybe not so straight!

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Subj:  Re:Arazi
Date:  95-02-28 00:47:50 EDT
From:  Holy Bull
Posted on: America Online

Concerning Arazi's Derby:

Check the fractional breakdown...if I recall, he tossed in a :22 3/5 quarter
in the Derby.  Unfortunately, he couldn't sustain it.

He was one brilliant animal, and a series of excuses cost him a place in
history.  Too bad.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi
Date:  95-02-28 03:16:55 EDT
From:  Woodmeadow
Posted on: America Online

You know, Arazi did indeed produce a turn of foot in the Derby that was
breathtaking and then he tired.  Who knows, was he a miler, trained wrong for
races he was placed in, asked to do to much shipping, didn't come back from
knee surgery, didn't really like his American jock - P. Val (used to dump him
in the mornings and their was a controversy over who would ride him in
US-wasn't Steve Cauthen the European contract rider of the Arab partner to
Paulson?)

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Subj:  Re:Arazi
Date:  95-02-28 12:45:44 EDT
From:  SufflkDown
Posted on: America Online

I fell hard for Arazi.... like a first crush.  Did I really believe that all
that catering through the wooded training grounds would ready this horse to
go a mile and a 1/4 off of one paltry prep on the turf?  Yes.... and so did
Bill Nack (SI, Derby Preview).    I guess Eltish may give us a clue if that
sort of soft prep is possible..... Won't get fooled again.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi,
The Tripe Crown, etc.
Date:  95-02-28 16:09:24 EDT
From:  ACWCrane
Posted on: America Online

Good post Secretoath.  I agree about dosage being overused and might as well
put my 2 cents worth in.  I'm not mathematical, which is why I'm not a
handicapper (perfer to bet on gut instinct -- winning percentage about 5%),
and when people start throwing statistics around my eyes usually get crossed.
But I do know enough about statistics to recognize that they are handy for
quantifying subjective criteria in a general manner.

The basic assumption that assigning a high number to horses with proven
stamina abilitieis and low numbers to those with proven speed (to put it VERY
simply), is logical as stamina horses will usually throw more offspring with
stamina and speed horses will usually throw more offspring with speed.  And
if one is not familiar with the individual characteristics of a hundred or so
stallions, assigning numbers provides a quick way to categorize them
(assuming one trusts the person assigning the numbers).

The problem comes when people draw a line and say that any given horse on any
given day in any given race will win or lose because his number is higher or
lower than the line.  First, if I remember my statistics class in college,
every statistical analysis has a margin of error.  Therefore the line that
has been drawn has to have some + or - variable and I have not seen anyone
address this.  Also, I only see discussions about how dosage applies to the
Derby.  Has anyone applied it to the Preakness, Belmont, Met Mile, Santa
Anita Derby, etc., etc.?  The statistical validity would improve if applied
to every race possible.

There is always a first time for everything and nothing is new under the sun.
So eventually there will be a horse who will win the Derby whose dosage is so
"out of whack" that even revisionists won't be able to adjust the figures.
This will inevitably lead to new theories that may be based on logical
underpinnings, but eventually will again be applied to specific cases when
they should be reserved for statistical averages.

And this brings me to my favorite can of worms.  The Dosage theory and most
of the other statistical attempts to conquer the mysteries of genetics are
automatically HALF wrong because they do not include the contribution of the
DAMS!!!  For example, the Thoroughbred Times recently published one of its
"Sire-Line Analysis of Mares bred to" lists in this case Wild Again (Feb 11,
1995)  which are very nice, but can be misleading.  Even though the list is
an analaysis of mares, the mares are not named, only their sires are given.
One of the uses of such a list is to discover "nicks" between sires and
broodmare sires.

What this list misses entirely is such things as the "nick" between Wild
Again and his sire Icecapade and a female family.  Wild Again is sire of Wild
Harmony who is out of a No Robbery mare named Deauville Dove.  Deauville Dove
is a daughter of the mare Miss Summons (by Helioscope), who has a
stakes-winning half-sister to Deaville Dove named Freon who is by Icecapade.
Ergo, if one believes in nicks (which is a whole different argument), one
should apply oneself to the study of the Icecapade/Wild Again nick with Miss
Summons/Deaville Dove.

Or look at it another way, Miss Summons has two offspring by No Robbery, the
aforementiond Deauville Dove, who was stakes placed, and stakes winner
Larceny Kid.  If one were plotting a "Sire-Line Analysis of Mares Bred to No
Robbery," these two would turn up under Helioscope.  Does that mean there is
a No Robbery-Helioscope nick?  NO.  It's a No Robbery-Miss Summons nick.

It used to be that the male line was followed (aside from chauvanistic
tradition) because it was much easier to keep track of a few hundred sire
lines than of thousands of mares.  But with the computer we ought to be able
to do better.  The MARE IS HALF the horse and her confirmation, her ability,
and the genetics of her dam as well as her sire play an inescapable part in
the game.  My hope is that future listings such as the Sire-Line an

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Subj:
Re:Arazi, ETC.
Date:  95-02-28 16:10:41 EDT
From:  ACWCrane
Posted on: America Online

I meant Triple Crown not Tripe Crown on previous post, sorry. You'd think a
Katharine Gibbs graduate would know how to type!

Alicia

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Subj:  Re:old races
Date:  95-02-28 17:09:14 EDT
From:  SOICCNY
Posted on: America Online

Does anyone have the 1989 triple crown on tape or know
where I can get it ?

Brent T.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi
Date:  95-02-28 21:44:10 EDT
From:  XMarx
Posted on: America Online

I, too was impressed with Arazi's win in the Breeders Cup Juvenile, and
I forgive those who bet on him to win the Derby.  But why was he the
favorite at the Breeders Cup Mile at Gulfstream?  Not that I minded much:
I made a killing on Lure.

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Subj:  Re:Arazi
Date:  95-03-01 01:31:07 EDT
From:  SugahBugah
Posted on: America Online

Good for you!  I did too!